Turning Down Saturday Night Live (1994)

I read that during that time, you were actually asked to play Saturday Night Live and turned it down. Was that also because you didn’t feel ready as a live band?

WASSERMAN: Exactly, that’s right. And I don’t think we were ready then. I’d love to do it now. Lorne, if you’re listening.

HOLLAND: We’re sorry.

How many shows had you done in support of Ignition?

WASSERMAN: Oh, I have no idea.

HOLLAND: We had a van by then, right? That was a big step up.

WASSERMAN: Yeah. There was a couple tours that I missed out on, I think two weeks each, one with Pennywise and one with Lunachicks in the US that would’ve been Ignition, and then six weeks in Europe with NOFX.

HOLLAND: Yeah, so a decent amount. Over a couple years, maybe 75 shows.

And I’m sure the Smash tour was a lot more shows.

HOLLAND: I remember because it was so much that I wanted to count it up, I think we did 225 shows in 14 months, something like that. It was a lot, we went to Europe four separate times, because we’d go there, and you’d play the club circuit. And then you’d come home, “Well, time to go back, because now you’re playing theaters.” So we would hit the same places and just do bigger venues every time that we came through.

I guess even when you guys and Green Day start selling big, it was like America was just catching up to the way punk rock had always been a little more mainstream in Europe.

WASSERMAN: I think yeah, maybe. When we first went over there opening up for NOFX in ’93, and playing in Milan, the kids were singing along, all the “Woah woah woah”‘s, they knew the songs. I remember being just blown away, not thinking we had any fans in Europe, so I think maybe that all helped.

HOLLAND: It is kinda funny at the beginning, because it’s so lopsided, in terms of your sales versus your live show, because we hadn’t really done a proper U.S. tour when Smash came out, really. So we played places like the Whiskey, great clubs, but very much the 500-seaters. We’re selling 100 thousand albums every week and playing 500-seater shows. But that was just kinda how it had to happen the first time. And gradually it kinda catches up to where you are in terms of your visibility, but it took a while, it took that whole cycle to get up to that level.

WASSERMAN: While the album was running, we were still kind of learning how to talk, I think. We had to get there, catch up to it.

Sampling Def Leppard On “Pretty Fly (For A White Guy)” (1998)

I wanted to ask about the sample of Def Leppard’s “Rock Of Ages” on “Pretty Fly (For A White Guy).” I found it funny to look at the songwriting credits and see four names, it’s Dexter Holland, two members of Def Leppard, and Mutt Lange. How much do you actually have to split with Def Leppard for those three seconds at the beginning of the song?

HOLLAND: Y’know, we had met Def Leppard during Smash, somehow, we crossed paths in Japan or whatever. And they’re just the nicest guys, just blokes, y’know? And fortunately, we just happened to have the same music attorney. So I just thought it was funny to take their sample and put it in front of my song. It just seemed like a punk thing to do, because it doesn’t make sense. Why would you do that? That’s exactly why I wanted to do that. So we called ’em up, and they said, “Yeah.” I think it was 10 grand. “Give us 10 grand and we’ll call it even.” So they were very nice about it.

It’s just funny, because you’re technically one of four songwriters, but yeah, they’re not getting 75 percent of the royalties for that little intro.

HOLLAND: Yeah, thank God.

And those songs get played on some of the same radio stations, so sometimes I hear that intro, and I don’t know if it’s going to be your song or their song.

WASSERMAN: I gotta admit, I was completely unfamiliar with Def Leppard’s music when that came out. And I remember hearing the “Gunter glieben glauchen globen” on the radio and I’m like, “What? They’re playing us on this classic rock radio station?” And then it goes into this song that I wasn’t familiar with.

HOLLAND: You didn’t know the original song, huh?

WASSERMAN: No! I knew that it was a sample from something, but it wasn’t the music I listened to so I was completely unfamiliar with their stuff.

Performing “Million Miles Away” With Ed Sheeran At Napa Valley’s BottleRock Festival (2024)

Earlier this year, you performed “Million Miles Away” with Ed Sheeran at a festival. Is that the most unexpected situation of someone wanting to do a song with you guys?

WASSERMAN: Yeah, he’s a big fan, I had heard that he was a big fan. The first record he ever bought, was ours, Conspiracy Of One, and he loves the song “Million Miles Away.” He said he would play that in the mirror and pretend to perform before he actually knew how to play any instruments. So when I saw that we were playing the same day, I was like, “Let’s ask if he wants to join us onstage,” and he said yes. And he sent us a little snippet of him singing along to the song, and then we rehearsed it backstage that day, he came back, we got to meet him. He showed us his Offspring tattoo on his ribcage.

HOLLAND: He’s the real deal.

WASSERMAN: I’m not that surprised. I like a lot of different kinds of music, so to hear that somebody who’s known primarily for his pop hits would like us, it doesn’t strike me as that odd. I know that for a lot of fans it probably does, because he’s such a pop guy, and we’re rock guys. But it kinda made sense to me.

HOLLAND: I was surprised. I would not think that a songwriter like that would be into a band like ours. He must have been, what, like 10 years old when he bought that record, probably, right?

WASSERMAN: I think he said he was nine years old, that was the first CD he ever bought. His aunt gave him 10 pounds for his birthday or for Christmas or something, and he went out and bought Conspiracy Of One.

HOLLAND: What a cool story, though, to hear something like that, and learn that we had an influence on someone like that.

I imagine that’s also one of the great things about playing festivals for bands, is that you get to cross paths with other artists that you might not otherwise run into.

HOLLAND: That’s the coolest part about festivals, yeah, you get to play with different bands, bands that you might not normally see or tour with, and just have that kind of vibe backstage with all the different artists, it’s really cool.

The “She’s Got Issues” Video, Starring Zooey Deschanel (1999)

I was also thinking about festival lineups because I went to the Virgin Mobile Festival in 2008, and you were on the lineup, and so was Zooey Deschanel’s band She & Him. And I remembered that she was in the “She’s Got Issues” video before she started appearing in big movies. Her scenes in the video are mostly separate from the band, so I don’t know how much you interacted with her at the time, or if you ever ran into her later.

HOLLAND: We did meet her that day.

WASSERMAN: But yeah, we didn’t get to know her well. And then all of a sudden, yeah, she started bein’ in stuff, most notably Elf, I mean I see her every Christmas season. I love her in that movie, she’s great. We did run into her once, she was hanging out backstage at a festival in Seattle, and I did walk up to her and say “Hey, it’s good to see you again, I’m so happy for all your success.”

“You’re Gonna Go Far, Kid” Reaching A Billion Streams On Spotify (2024)

In July, 2008’s “You’re Gonna Go Far, Kid” became your first song to reach a billion streams on Spotify. And I wasn’t shocked by that, because I’ve heard that song on the radio so many times, to this day, but a lot of people might be surprised that it wasn’t one of your ’90s songs.

HOLLAND: Yeah, it’s been our highest streaming song for a long time. Maybe that’s because it came out a little later when streaming was taking off. I do know that it goes over so well at our live shows. But yeah, hitting a billion was like, wow, that’s really something. It really kinda underscores how much you can be heard, I guess, through streaming now. A billion.

WASSERMAN: It’s very different than, y’know, when Smash came out 30 years ago.

Yeah, back then you could see that a few million people bought your CD, but you don’t know how many times you listen to it. Now you can see how many times people are playing the song, and it’s almost a bigger endorsement to know that so many people are still playing the song over and over, many years after its release. And “You’re Gonna Go Far, Kid” wasn’t even the first single from the Rise And Fall, Rage And Grace album, so I wonder if you even knew what kind of potential it had.

HOLLAND: Yeah, we decided to go with “Hammerhead” first and that was the second single. I think we all kinda had a sense that it was one of our good songs, not that it was going to be as big as it turned out to be.

WASSERMAN: I didn’t think it was gonna be as big as “Come Out And Play” or “Pretty Fly” or “The Kids Aren’t Alright,” which is right on the heels of “You’re Gonna Go Far, Kid.” That’s gonna probably be the next one to rack up a billion in a couple months. I did know, though, my son was really into that song when we demoed it, especially the “Dance, fucker, dance” part, he loved that.

The Offspring’s Early Days As Manic Subsidal (1984-1986)

Let’s talk about the early days of the Offspring and the band’s original name, Manic Subsidal. Your earliest records don’t sound that different than what you sounded like today, so it seems like you figured out pretty quickly what you wanted to do musically.

HOLLAND: I grew up listening to whatever, I mean, Top 40 radio was a bit of everything, you could hear Led Zeppelin on Top 40. Gradually I got into more of the rock stuff and Elton John and Creedence Clearwater and then that turned into Kiss, and my older brought home some punk records and then it was all over. I always say, I always loved music, but it was when I finally got into the punk stuff, that made me want to do music. So yeah, we loved the Orange County bands, so I think we kinda sounded like them when we started. We needed a very punk name, Manic Subsidal seemed like a very punk name. Just imagine how big we could’ve been if we kept our name, Noodles, y’know? But no, people couldn’t even pronounce it.

WASSERMAN: “Maniac Suicidal, what?”

HOLLAND: We realized we were gonna have to do something about the name. We picked the Offspring, not so much that we loved the name, but we loved how it didn’t pigeonhole us, it didn’t sound like “Nuclear Arsenal” or something. So many times you can tell what kind of music a band does by their name.

WASSERMAN: I think it was James [Lilja], our drummer at the time, who suggested it, so that was even before Ron [Welty] was in the band.

HOLLAND: Yeah, it was. But we were just having fun. It was the most fun thing we could do on a weekend. We didn’t wanna go to a basketball game, we didn’t wanna go camping, we wanted to jam at our friend’s house and drink beer. That was just the most fun we could possibly have. There was no idea of, “We’re gonna make it someday,” or, “We’re paying our dues.” It wasn’t like that because it was punk rock; punk rock bands didn’t make a living at it.

What was the first song you guys wrote that ended up being on a record?

WASSERMAN: It would’ve been “Blackball” and “I’ll Be Waiting,” right?

HOLLAND: Yeah. We were demoing right away. I think it was 1986, we recorded “I’ll Be Waiting” and “Blackball” and we pressed our own 7-inch. Back then we had to do everything ourselves. People wear the DIY thing like a badge of honor, but it was really a badge of necessity for us, because no one was gonna sign us. No one’s gonna press a record or pay for our recording. We had to take our record covers that got printed and we had to fold them and glue them together, because we couldn’t afford to actually have them assembled, we just got these flat pieces of paper that we had to put the creases in.

WASSERMAN: We got a bunch of glue sticks and we bought some beer and went over to your house or James’s house.

HOLLAND: We pressed a thousand of ’em, that was all we could afford. And we knew we weren’t gonna make money off it. We did get a distributor to take a couple hundred of ’em, but it was almost like a calling card in a way. We were kind of passing ‘em out, we took ‘em to local record stores, they would sell ‘em on consignment. But we just wanted to get our music out there. Remember when we finally got the box? It was just the raddest thing to go, “Fuck, this is our record.”

WASSERMAN: Yeah.

Writing The “Come Out And Play” Hook In Dexter’s Laboratory (1994)

Dexter, your academic career is well known, and I’ve seen you tell the story that you came up with the “keep ’em separated” line when you have to keep Erlenmeyer flasks separated so they’d cool down faster in the laboratory at USC.

HOLLAND: Yeah. When I said it to myself in my head, all of a sudden it had a rhythm to it, “Gotta keep ’em separated.” That was just sticking in my head all day in the lab as I’m walking around in a lab coat and gloves, oven mitts. And then it was like, “Wait a minute, I gotta put this in a song.” And I had been working on the riff that ended up being “Come Out And Play,” and then I knew exactly where it would fit. And then it was just a matter of, “Okay, what is this song about?” I drove through the bad part of LA every day, going back and forth form from USC, I was very aware of the gang presence that existed in LA, and that became sort of the inspiration for the song.

I know you’ve gotten your Ph.D. Are you still active right now in researching or publishing?

HOLLAND: So right now, I’m 99% finished with a paper that I hope to publish in the next several months, but I’ve got a lot of press to do, so I haven’t had time to finish it.

What is the paper is about?

HOLLAND: I’m taking parts of my thesis and parsing it apart and kind of refining it to make a paper. But through computer searches I found a molecule called a MicroRNA, and I think that it may interact with the HIV molecule, a particular part of it. And I think that it’s possible that you could make the cells harder to infect by ramping up this molecule, if that makes sense.

For so many years, the focus was on preventing or minimizing the spread of HIV, it feels like now we’re in an exciting time with so many scientific advancements to control or mitigate it and possibly cure it in the foreseeable future.

HOLLAND: Yeah, they’ve gotten it to a place where it’s much more possible to control it. You’re not gonna get rid of it necessarily, and it’s kind of a long story, but HIV gets into your DNA and it doesn’t come out, so it’s different from other kinds of infections. But there’s a lot of work to do, and it’s still a real serious worldwide scourge, especially in Africa.

Kelly Clarkson Covering “Come Out And Play” (2023)

Speaking of “Come Out And Play,” did you see Kelly Clarkson sing it on her TV show last year?

HOLLAND: Yeah, I thought that was so great, that was so great that I sent her a box of hot sauce.

WASSERMAN: Well, she must have heard that I covered “Since U Been Gone” with my daughter’s show choir, and so she was just doing me the solid of covering our song.

HOLLAND: That’s probably what it is, yeah.

WASSERMAN: You never know who’s gonna be a fan of the Offspring too, Carrie Underwood came to a show in Nashville once and hung out for a little bit.

HOLLAND: Dee Snider came to a show once.

Selling Napster T-shirts And Donating Money To Napster Creator Shawn Fanning (2000)

In the early 2000s when the music industry was really up in arms about MP3s and piracy, you tried to release Conspiracy Of One online on your website and were stopped by Columbia. And you sold T-shirts with the Napster logo and gave the profits to Shawn Fanning when a lot of big bands where suing or threatening to sue people over MP3s. Are you proud of having been forward thinking about those issues at the time?

WASSERMAN: I think we knew that fighting it was like trying to hold back the tides with a broom. The cat was out of the bag, or the genie was out of the bottle, or whatever you wanna say.

HOLLAND: The horse was out of the barn!

WASSERMAN: We knew that that’s the way the world was heading and nothing we’d do is gonna change it, let’s see how to work with it rather than try to fight this thing that’s gonna win.

Yeah, people like Metallica risked the backlash to speak out against it, and it didn’t seem worth it for them.

HOLLAND: At the time, our stuff was getting widely bootlegged on the internet, but we were actually selling quite a bit as well. And we realized there was for sure a promotional value to the sharing of music, and that definitely still exists. Of course it decimated the CD business, and they’re just figuring out now how to put that business model together with streaming instead of physical unit sales. But thank you for acknowledging that, I think that we were one of the first bands to really get on board and say, “Hey, this is it, you guys, let’s embrace it.” That doesn’t get mentioned a lot about us.

WASSERMAN: I think it’s hurt the up-and-coming bands that we were fans of more than it hurt us or any of the big bands of the time.

Trolling Axl Rose By Announcing That Their Next Album Would Be Named Chinese Democracy (2003)

So before you released Splinter, you announced that you were calling the album Chinese Democracy because Guns N’ Roses were taking too long to release their album. I know this was just an April Fool’s joke, but did it feel like it got blown out of proportion beyond what you intended?

WASSERMAN: I think it played it out exactly the way we hoped it would! You can’t copyright album titles. We thought it was just funny, so when we got the cease and desist order, we didn’t think much of it. Eventually people knew that we’re not gonna do that, it’s just a joke.

HOLLAND: We were just goofin’. And nothing against them, personally at all, I like Guns N’ Roses, it was just funny to us that they had been hyping up this album that was never coming out for ten years.

WASSERMAN: Our friend Josh [Freese] shares writing credits on the song “Chinese Democracy.”

“Weird Al” Yankovic’s “Pretty Fly For A Rabbi” (1999)

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I always like to know what people think when their songs get parodied by “Weird Al” Yankovic, so what did you think of “Pretty Fly For A Rabbi”?

WASSERMAN: That was when my daughter finally took my band seriously! Yeah, you know, he wanted to do “Come Out And Play” as “Laundry Day,” and we just felt like, “Ah, I don’t know, please don’t.” We kinda asked him not to, we didn’t feel like we were prepared to have somebody do that for our songs. Once “Pretty Fly” came out and he wanted to do it, we said, “Absolutely, man, it’s time.”

HOLLAND: It was definitely a “You know you made it when…” kind of moment. I don’t think he has to ask, I think they just have to pay the royalty on it.

I think he just likes to ask the original artist, so he’s on good terms with them and isn’t upsetting anybody. One time he got permission from Coolio’s label, but then Coolio himself didn’t seem too happy about it, so he’s cautious about it. But it would definitely be a little strange if you’d said that “Pretty Fly (For A White Guy)” is a very serious song and he shouldn’t make fun of it.

WASSERMAN: It’s a sacred topic. I know when I saw him live right after did “Pretty Fly For A Rabbi,” he did do “Come Out And Play” as “Laundry Day,” he did kind of a medley of songs. So maybe he did the cover but just didn’t put it on the record.